Most business owners see their website as a digital business card—but what if it could become your company’s top-performing employee? Digital assets make or break deals in today’s M&A world, yet are still one of the most overlooked sources of value, risk, and growth potential.

In this episode, Paige Wiese, founder of Tree Ring Digital, reveals how optimizing your company’s digital presence can unlock hidden value, improve M&A transitions, and future-proof your growth—whether you’re buying, selling, or scaling.

You’ll discover…

• The costly mistakes most business owners make with their digital assets during M&A.
• How neglecting your website can quietly erode your company’s valuation.
• The surprising M&A pitfalls that even experienced IT teams routinely miss.
• Why Tree Ring Digital and a managed service provider are NOT interchangeable (and what’s at stake if you confuse the two).
• The next big digital risks (and opportunities) owners can’t afford to ignore in 2025.

Mentioned in this episode:

• https://www.treeringdigital.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/paigewiese/
• https://www.treeringdigital.com/digital-marketing-services/digital-asset-management/

Transcript

Patrick Stroth: Hello there. I’m Patrick Stroth, trusted authority in executive and transactional liability and national practice leader for mergers and acquisitions for Liberty Company Insurance Brokers, where we provide peace of mind with great care. Welcome to M&A Masters, where I speak with the leading experts in mergers and acquisitions, and we’re all about one thing here. That’s a clean exit for owners, founders, and their investors.

Today, I’m joined by Paige Wiese, founder of Tree Ring Digital. With over 15 years of experience, Tree Ring Digital has established itself as one of Denver’s leading marketing experts delivering innovative and tailored solutions that empower businesses of all sizes to achieve sustainable growth and success.

And when people think of marketing and digital marketing in particular and online things, sometimes they’re going to default to SEOs. They’re going to default to maximizing, optimizing websites and everything. I personally go farther back, because I believe there’s a large part of the lower middle market that still considers things like a website as a business card.

Here’s an identity and address for our company. Here’s how you contact it. But they’re not thinking about, you know how to optimize a website to be a sales tool and a revenue generator, and that gets overlooked a lot. And for owners and founders that are looking to add value, this is an easy way to do it.

Also for acquirers of lower middle market companies, you get a great value proposition if your target doesn’t have an established online sales vehicle or optimized website, because you can make a big difference in the bottom line very, very quickly. So I’m very glad to have you, Paige. Thank you for joining us today.

Paige Wiese: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Patrick, for having me.

Patrick: Now, Paige, before we get into all things digital, let’s start with you. How did you get to this point in your career?

Paige: Yeah, that’s a great question. I actually started in architecture and got my degree in architectural drafting, and that was around 2008. So not an ideal time to be getting into architectural drafting, that’s for sure. And I was just trying to figure out, what do I do to make ends meet?

How do I do something to make money when I had spent all of my education on architecture. Even back in high school, I was taking architectural classes. So, you know, really at a crossroads there for me, and just started picking up website design on the side and started teaching myself how to do website design and development.

Clients always enjoyed, like it’s a great site. Thank you so much, but it’s not converting. And they always looked at like myself as a freelancer or even as a company of like but it’s not converting. And so we started taking a closer look. Well, that’s not what we want to be putting out the door. We want things that are going to work.

So I started diving deeper with the clients and realizing that they weren’t marketing. And so that’s when we were able to start identifying, okay, so the website’s fine. It’s that the marketing strategy or lack thereof is where the issue lies. And that’s when I started getting more into the marketing side of it all as well, and understanding like Google Ads can work for this, SEO can work for that, and social is better in this situation.

I started my company by just putting out Craigslist ads until Craigslist was like, no more. You can’t put any more ads out. Just really cracking their algorithm, if you will, and their system. And so that’s how I got started, and that’s kind of where we’re able to take those approaches with clients to say, let’s do something different.

Let’s try something new. Let’s expand on what already exists and get a little bit deeper into it with a different way. So that’s really when I was able to develop it into a full service marketing agency, and really working with clients on that front. And then over the years, we just started rolling up with our clients.

We started seeing them move into getting acquired or merging, and they’d bring us along with and say, we’re going to do the deal, but we want you to be the one who handles the marketing as we keep growing. So that’s where we started to see more and more of that M&A transaction and more in that space.

And realizing where a lot of those pitfalls lied and how no one was really taking reins in the transaction process of how do we successfully transfer these digital assets from one entity to another. Or successfully merge them. So that’s how we ended up here into the M&A space, more specifically on the marketing and website side.

Patrick: Real quick context, with regard to Tree Ring Digital. You didn’t name it Wiese Digital, so how’d you come up with the name there?

Paige: Yeah, that’s a great question. With Tree Ring Digital, I mean, we’re in Colorado. You mentioned it earlier, like everyone wants to go with Aspen, you know, digital, or some sort of red leaf, whatever. And all these.

Patrick: Mountainous.

Paige: Yes, all the earthy terms. And I’m an avid outdoor enthusiast. I do a lot of trail running, and at the same time, just really love wood and what it is. And so what I was out there, I was just like, oh, the tree rings. They represent growth, they represent longevity, they represent uniqueness. And I started realizing how much that aligned with the core values of the company, of we don’t do cookie cutter marketing strategies.

Everything that we put out the door is unique to that client, and we’re there for the long term. We’re here to build relationships with our clients. We want to see growth for our clients. And so when we started putting all that together, I was like, you know, this actually isn’t that bad of a business name.

Patrick: I appreciate you already brought in the tie in with mergers and acquisitions, with your with your program, because you’re not just optimizing websites or doing marketing. You’re providing a real value add to lower middle market companies with regard to managing the digital assets of a company. Talk about that. What is Tree Ring Digital delivering or bringing to the table to the lower middle market? Do both the buy side, and then we’ll talk about what you do on the sell side, because I think it’s very important.

Paige: Perfect. Yeah, so on the buy side, we’re really looking at, how do we make sure that, when you’re buying it, that everything is coming with it. And, what is it that you’re buying? You touched on it briefly at the beginning of, you know, there’s value. If someone hasn’t paid attention to a digital presence, and they’re acquiring a business, right away, you know, you can grow that company pretty quickly.

And at the same time, you don’t want to be putting yourselves in a spot where you’re acquiring a company only to find out you’re missing the domain name, you’re missing the emails, you’re missing a third party CRM, that you’re, you know, having to go through ADA compliance and all of these things. And so we really look at, how do we find that value in what you’re acquiring?

Get it all lined up, get it integrated into your systems you already have in place so that it is more streamlined. And then, how do we turn that asset into an asset and not a line item on your portfolio. We see a lot of companies will acquire and then sit. And they don’t ever touch it again. And it’s like the whole point of acquiring, for the most part, is to be putting that into an asset.

Something that’s going to bring you more money, whether it’s, hey, we’ve got five of these, and now we’re at 10. So we can start considering ourselves as the number one blank, you know, in the industry, or whatever that looks like. And other times, you know, it’s like, no, we bought this business because we want to be having the revenue that comes from a pre-existing company. Not starting something from scratch and growing it that way.

So that’s the ways that we start to come in and look at it on the buy side. And I think for us, digital asset management plays a really, really critical key role in that is when we’ve had clients come to us that have acquired they’re often just asking questions. They don’t know. They’re sitting there going, what do you mean I need that. I don’t know who owns that.

Oh, I’m sure the previous owner is sending that to us, but no one’s actually following up on these things. And so while it’s all good intentions of like, yes, we’re going to get that, or, oh, I didn’t need it, but I’m sure we can find it, it is going to slow down and impact your business. And at some point you’re going to notice the website down.

You’re going to notice your emails not working. You’re going to notice the site stops functioning. It could be wasted ad spend because you didn’t know money was being spent in a certain spot on a credit card. It could be that the credit card didn’t get updated, and so when it expired, you didn’t realize, why is business slower?

Oh, because the ads haven’t been running for six months. So there’s all these little pieces that people don’t think about. Oh, right, we needed that. There’s probably a pretty easy reason why everything slowed down is we didn’t think to look at is that card still current and activated and up to date?

Patrick: It’s just an operational type of thing that they would assume the IT side and the IT group within the acquiring firm is gonna handle. Oh, they’ll be on top of it. It’s also interesting to note that you may buy a target and their URL, which is really nice, but then the URL is not necessarily tied into email, so it could be info at or all these other possibilities for client engagement that doesn’t follow along.

Paige: Yeah. I mean everything like, yeah, hey, we decided we didn’t need those emails, so we didn’t set them up again. Or sometimes that’s what accounts were set up as, like, third party tools were set up using info at Patrick, at whatever, at but then, as it gets acquired, those didn’t stay in place.

And now we’re trying to figure out, how do we gain access to our operations, our processes, the tools that we use so that were set up in place to streamline are now broken, and what does that recovery look like? And there’s a lot of troubleshooting and time and energy and effort that gets spent into recovering those systems. And, yeah, obviously, a lot of money lost as well.

Patrick: Well, that’s good, because on the buy side, that diligence effort and transitioning not only avoids losing money, but can make you money as a buyer. So I think that’s a real big value out there. Talk about the sell side, and I imagine it’s just, you’re a seller, you’d like to go out to market. However, you’re trying to also think about, how can I enhance the value of my firm?

Paige: Yeah, absolutely. On the sell side, we see it a little bit more often, as far as especially in the lower middle market, because they’re usually more referral based businesses that have been around for a while and are pretty good and even steady with how everything is moving, and they haven’t specifically looked at, what is the growth strategy? How do we increase valuation before we put this to market? What does all of that look like?

And so that’s an area that we come in. We see a lot of agencies talking like scalability, and how do we grow and what does that look like? But not often are they talking about, how are we actually going to increase the valuation of the business for when we go to market? And so with that, it’s going to be more what is the website doing?

When is the last time it was touched? Is this something that a buyer is going to have to come in and immediately revamp? It’s decreasing the value. Because that’s something that they already know is an expense before they even buy the business.

The second side of that is going to be, hey, we’re doing fantastic with referrals. Nobody wants to see that. It’s great to have referrals. It’s a great way to grow and build a business. But when you go to market, that is not what a buyer wants to see. They are so terrified that if they were to acquire it and you walk out of that door, that business isn’t coming with you.

And so we come in on a marketing front to start cleaning those things up, and we start looking at how can we have qualified leads coming in the door consistently, and can prove that the business isn’t dependent on referrals, or all the networking that someone’s been doing, or, you know, the the leads they’ve been creating over the years, but actually tangible, good, qualified leads that’ll stick with it through an acquisition.

And oftentimes that’s building up brand presence, that’s building up, you know, strong marketing campaigns, increasing page rank, but there’s so many pieces in that digital footprint that go into it, the businesses aren’t looking at. They’re like, hey, like you said, we’ve got a website. It’s like a brochure, it’s a business card. It does what it does, but it doesn’t mean that that’s going to be able to get you to market and get the valuation that you’re looking for.

So that’s where we start to come in and clean that up. And then same thing on the due diligence stuff. How do we get through the digital asset management and get that exit-ready due diligence in place so that everything is a smooth transition. You’re not getting caught in due diligence going, okay, show us your analytics.

Oh no, I can’t contact the marketing company. They haven’t been responsive. We stopped using them years ago, but they set it up. We don’t know how to access those numbers. Okay, great. How do we access the hosting and the website, so we can take a look at the code.

I don’t know what. I don’t know where that site’s hosted at. I just know that we have access to the back end of the website. So we come in and put all of that together in a nice, clean package, so that when they go to market and go through due diligence, it’s an even smoother, clean transaction there, too.

Patrick: Well and I think that’s great, and also gives a little leverage to the seller then, because if you’re bringing all that nice packaging right on over, and you’re showing sustainability, which sustainability is the key word out there for buyers. But you package that up, bring that over, there are a lot of buyers that probably didn’t even contemplate that.

So, oh, you have that. There’s one more addition to our valuation that you guys forgot to put in here, and so that works out. And I think that’s very, very helpful. Does it take a long time if you’re thinking of going to market? Give us a timeline. What does it take for a company to engage you to do that kind of overview and make recommendations? Six months? Less? More?

Paige: Yeah, I think it can be broken down into two phases. For increasing valuation prior to going to market, I would say probably three to five years is a good time frame to start looking at, how do we redesign the website? How do we increase page rank? How do we increase those leads? And having qualified leads and notes these efforts are solid and working.

As far as the digital asset management and more of the exit ready due diligence, that one, yeah, that could be closer to, you know, six months. Let’s get in there. Let’s get that stuff cleaned up. Let’s get you ready to go, so that you’ve got that packet all ready to go and hand off. So it really depends on what the seller’s goals are.

Patrick: And the world of Tree Ring Digital isn’t just M&A. You’re out there for the long time, as you said, you’ve got a big lead up time. And then and hopefully, you know, post acquisition, you’re involved. But the initial reflex thinking about this, all these services are that ‘m just going to defer to my IT team.

I mean, we have a managed service provider that does this, so wouldn’t they be responsible for that? And that’s not the case. So, Paige, distinguish what Tree Ring Digital does compared to an MSP, because it’s is profoundly different.

Paige: That’s a great question, because I think it’s really easily confused and overlooked. And you’re right, it doesn’t have to just be in the M&A space. We do see it there a bit, but anytime, you know, usually we see MSPs are handling and managing a domain name. And ideally, in a perfect world, they’re the ones who are handling the emails as well.

That’s, you know, those are the two things that they really want to control when it comes to your digital presence. Beyond that, we have recommendations and referrals from more IT people of like, we don’t touch websites. We’ve got a client who is asking us, and they want to, you know, fix up their website. But we don’t do that.

And it’s a common misconception. As far as, hey, they understand IT, that is website, right? And it’s not related whatsoever. They’re two completely different areas. And then, in addition to they don’t really care about your analytics. The MSP doesn’t matter. Like, how many people go to your website, they don’t care. Is your website converting. That’s not their problem, right?

So they’re not paying attention to any of the marketing front either. So they don’t know have you ever run Google ads? I don’t know. How do we recover Google ads? I don’t know. We’re at Tree Ring Digital we are in touch with whether it be Google, whether it be some of the social profiles, whether it be your hosting providers, whether we’re hosting it, we are constantly talking to all of these different providers of services so that we understand and can help our clients navigate that landscape.

And we’re in it day in and day out. So when clients come to us, that’s why we’re not just a digital agency. When clients come to us, they’ll ask us any question. Why did Google send me this? Let us tell you about it. We’ve probably seen seven more of those come through this week, right?

And so we really start to turn into that digital partner for them that can talk the lingo of and handle domains in your emails. We set up a lot of email accounts. However, when it comes to everything else in your digital footprint, it really shouldn’t, nor does it fall on an MSP. And so when you start looking at the due diligence process, or you start looking at the transaction teams, they’re thinking someone’s got to handle.

That’s what IT’s responsibility is. They don’t want to. Every person I interview and talk to, they’re just like I don’t want to recover a Facebook account. I don’t even want to start going down that path. And so that’s where having a partner like us is a really helpful asset to a company.

Patrick: Yeah, your MSP is looking at operations, you know, the ERP system and cyber security, which are, which are massive. The other items you need a specialist for, just as you would not be commenting and recommending a firewall or other types of patching software. You’re doing the marketing area.

Paige: Correct. And I think you bring up a good point with cyber too. Like on the hosting side, we’re going to handle what does some of that cybersecurity look like? What does preventing your site from getting hacked look like? What does you know, trying to keep up with some of the email stuff and regulations and making sure that your emails are staying secure.

We’re going to work with those pieces, but I’m not going to get into the rest of the cybersecurity. What you’re doing to accept payments, what you’re doing with client data, what you’re doing with these different things that fall outside of what’s going into your website server. Those are two very, very different sectors.

And so, yeah, we don’t really advertise like we’re going to get into cyber security. We’re going to defer to our partners for that and make sure that we’ve got the client in the right area for this is the expert for the cyber security side. We’ll handle to make sure the content on your website’s not getting compromised.

Patrick: Excellent. Paige, give us a profile of your ideal client. Who is Tree Ring Digital trying to serve?

Paige: Tree Ring Digital is serving the lower middle market, as you mentioned. Typically between 1 million and 100 million in revenue. I know that is a span. We’ve seen all sorts, though, and really looking in that growth phase, and I think that that span also works really well, because we’re typically dealing with businesses that are in that growth or some sort of acquisition, whether they’re looking to exit, or looking to acquire, that’s who we’re working with.

And so sometimes that is a little bit smaller company being acquired by a larger company that we’re already working with, or it could be taking a smaller company and growing them into the exit ready side so that they can be acquired. But usually some sort of growth. How can we really come in and add value?

I think a lot of clients are just using their website as I’ve got a pretty website, and it’s not the way to go about it. I am a very strong advocate for it should be working like an employee. It should be an employee that is working 24/7 for you. Whether it’s on sales, whether it’s on taking orders, whether it’s on streamlining your processes or an onboarding system, whatever that looks like, your website should be so much more powerful than a business card.

And if you’re still looking at your website as a business card, we need to be revamping what that mindset looks like. So that’s, you know, really who we’re looking at is starting to build that business and the website into an asset for them.

Patrick: Any preferences or aversions for industries or regions because you’re online, which is helpful. So you’re probably worldwide, but.

Paige: So we focus mostly nationally. We’ve got a lot of clients all over the US. And then I would say we’re pretty industry agnostic, with the exception that we don’t really get too far into real estate specifically. Like real estate agents, whether it’s commercial or residential, and we don’t really get too far into some of the financial advisors and planners.

There’s just so many restrictions around that, and like legal things that we need to be putting into place and following a lot of times too, we’re confined because the financial advisors or the real estate agents are being provided tools down the pipeline from earlier in the pipeline.

And so our hands just start to get tied. But beyond that, I mean, everyone that we get is a fun challenge for us. We love looking at tear this thing apart. Let’s figure out what we can do. What’s something different that will help them stand out? And that’s really what we’re looking for. So we love seeing all the industries come across.

Patrick: Essentially, if you got a website, or probably you’d like to get a website, Tree Ring Digital is your place. So okay, that works out really well. You had mentioned earlier that you are participating with the due diligence process and so forth, which goes into the preparation that buyers do before they make an acquisition.

And where they are taking the disclosures of representations and warranties of a seller talking about their business, their financials, the elements about a company that you know the buyer will use to calculate a value and an ultimate purchase price. And you know the buyer goes ahead and wants to make sure that these representations are accurate, and the seller goes ahead and puts out additional information.

Talk about your involvement with that process, because what it’s leading into is, for a lot of companies, a reps and warranties insurance policy. What involvement, good, bad, or indifferent, have you had in that area for insurance?

Paige: Yeah, it’s a good point. Because people are over there looking at insurance asks 1000 questions before approving and accepting on the client and everything. But they’re really not looking at a lot of the areas that fall into the digital asset side and what that transaction and transition looks like. And I think that we’ll probably start to see more of it honestly, because it’s really starting to hit buyers and sellers way more than people are thinking.

And that’s kind of where we started seeing more and more of this need and push. And what that looks like is, for example, in a transaction, the lawyer is going in and saying, yep, this is going to transfer ownership to this company. You know, that’s how this is going to go. It’s really cut and dry.

It’s all laid out every single time, but no one’s actually hunting down that information and making sure that ownership did, in fact, get transitioned. So what we’re seeing is we’re getting the panic phone call where they’re like, my website’s down. What’s going on? Okay? Well, let’s slow back down. When did you acquire this? What’s going on? You know, tell me more.

And as we start going through that process, we hear, oh, I don’t know who owns the domain name. That should have been one of the first things you gathered in a transaction. Yeah, exactly. But they don’t. So now we have to figure out who has ownership. How far down a legal path do we have to go to prove ownership who has two factor authentication? How do we get this back up and running? And is that the key? Or do we need to start looking at hosting or something completely different?

I think what people don’t understand is the domain name is not only attached to your website, but it’s also attached to the emails. So as soon as the domain name goes down, you’re pretty much out in business until we can get something like that recovered. And that’s just one example. And you know, we’ve seen that take anywhere from a couple hours in a perfect world and situation all the way up to several days.

We’ve got two clients right now, I think they’ve been about five days to recovery process. And it just means they’re down. There’s no business. There’s nothing we can be doing. We’re just waiting for the companies to run through all of the legal work to go, okay, we’ve proven ownership. Let’s go ahead and hand it over.

So, imagine that, but you were also running ads to make sure that everything was growing in the business. Well, as soon as the website comes down, so do all your ads. So now you’re losing out the money that was going in that capacity. So that’s a place on the insurance side of who’s responsible. Is this the one that sold it for not handing all of that information over sooner?

Or is this the person that acquired for not asking for it sooner. And so back to your point on the insurance, someone is going to want to go after the lost money and the lost revenue in all of this. Someone is going to want to go after some of the legal fee to recoup all of that.

And that’s a place where we tend to see that insurance come in, and oftentimes it’s not entirely covered because it’s just not disclosed information at the time, so it wasn’t put into the paperwork and the writing to say, this is something that we will cover should something come up.

Patrick: And that’s a perfect analogy of what could happen when you have a seller, particularly lower middle market company. I founded this company, nobody knows it better than me. I’ve run it for 20 years, I know everything. So you’re passing on to the buyer, and the buyer’s performing their diligence, and maybe they are double checking on the URL, but they don’t go deep enough in there.

And a lot of times, the process is a compressed timeline, and nobody’s going to be able to know everything. And to that end, that’s where some of these issues can drop, and in the absence of a third party insurance policy, the two sides are going to be pointing fingers. Things can get very adversarial very quickly. And you know, it’s a real challenge.

Now, reps and warranties insurance was a product that was developed for just those types of situations where the seller believed that they had no problems out there and attested to that, and the buyer couldn’t find anything initially. But then something popped up that everybody missed, okay.

And so the insurance industry came in and said, buyer, seller, we have this insurance policy. And again, this is done before closing nationally. But what happens is show us the reps, buyer, show us your diligence, and for a couple bucks, if something blows up, don’t point the fingers at each other, come to us. We will review it.

We will take a look at the breach, see what happens. We take a look at what the cost is, and then we’re going to go ahead and make a resolution and get both sides working, which is very, very amenable. And to the point where on middle market and larger deals, rep and warranty insurance is present in over 90% of those transactions.

10 years ago, less than 5% market penetration. Now, over 90%. The challenge has been, what do you do with deals that are priced between 1 million and 50 million in enterprise value? They’re not going to be spending, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars for premiums for $100 million policy for those larger deals.

And so Lloyds of London came up with a re-imagined rep and warranty tool called transaction liability private enterprise. TLPE. It is a rep and warranty policy protects both the buyers and sellers from financial loss of the breach of the seller reps and at an annual cost, or average cost, excuse me, of 15 to $25,000 per million dollar in limits, that’s all it is.

There is no underwriting fee. There’s no other extra expenses for diligence. It just comes in to handle these smaller, simpler, straightforward transactions that are very numerous and very low risk. And so the cost is commensurate with the lower risk. And it’s a great solution that’s out there. So transaction liability private enterprise to handle just these situations.

But you can also avoid them ahead of time by bringing Tree Ring Digital in ahead of time, so you can outline all of this and should there be a breach, Tree Ring Digital can come in and attach it so that would mitigate the amount of loss coming in. Now.,Paige, as as we’re talking right now, what do you see going forward? What trends do you think are going to be happening? We’re in the second half of 2025, into 2026.

Paige: Yeah. I mean, like I said, one, I think it’s just there’s so many tools out there, more tools than there ever have been to run businesses. And you know, we’re in that place where, yeah, let’s make everything easier. Let’s work smarter, not harder, kind of thing. And so we’re seeing more and more of these start to pop up.

But also, rules and regulations are changing at a rapid pace, too. As far as what do we have to do with the privacy policies and ADA compliance? So I think that’s where, you know, back in the day, when I first started just build a website. Great. You can have a business, you’re up and running.

Patrick: If you build it, they will come.

Paige: Yeah, that’s not how it works anymore, whatsoever. And so that’s where we’re starting to see all of these digital assets just getting lost or, like, hard to track and maintain. And so one, I think we’re going to start seeing these come up more and more. I know the number of calls we’ve had have increased rapidly for it.

I mean, we probably field one to two a week of these kind of disaster issues. So that’s what we’re trying to like, how, yeah, do we be more proactive so we don’t see these businesses down and losing money but running really, really smoothly. I think the second thing that we’re going to start seeing, though, is with AI you have so many employees using their own personal accounts for using the AI tools.

Sometimes they don’t want the business to know that they’re using them, so they set it up themselves. Oftentimes, the business isn’t providing any sort of AI, here’s the protocol. Here’s how we want this done.

We’re going to provide everybody these accounts, and it stays proprietary to the company. So whatever data is being dumped into these chats that’s going with the employee when they leave, but it is work that was completed on the company’s dime often. So I think we’re going to see even more stuff like that.

Of hey, we were using this tool, but who has ownership, and not even just in a transaction, but from employee to employer, if you will. So I think we’re gonna start seeing a bit more chaos come from the advancement of some of the AI tools as well. And you know, who owns the rights to those things.